Hello everyone,

I would like to know, how you would handle the following scenario and whether you would rule differently in a Regular REL event.

(let's assume that this is an innocent mistake as usual)

Ashnod has 4 Swamps and a Deathrite Shaman on the battlefield. She has one Polluted Delta in her graveyard. She begins casting a spell that costs 4 mana. She wants to use her Shaman to pay for the spell, but is interrupted by her opponent who calls a judge. How far do you backup this GRV? Do you rewind before casting of the spell (to allow activation of the Shaman before it) or do you rewind to the moment in the middle of the casting? If so, do you force Ashnod to use all her lands to pay for the spell or do you allow her to somehow “fail to pay” (so that she can, again, use the Shaman before casting the spell)?

601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its
costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell includes proposal of the
spell (rules 601.2a–e) and determination and payment of costs (rules 601.2f–h). To cast a spell, a
player follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player
is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game
returns to the moment before the casting of that spell was proposed (see rule 717, “Handling Illegal
Actions”).

Thank you,


Milan Majercik

Assuming it's being used quickly (no potential for reaction fishing) I'd rule OoOS and move on.

Edited Gareth Tanner (Aug. 6, 2015 09:03:15 AM)

A player who taps a number of lands, as well as activates Deathrite to make mana, is (to me) proposing a shortcut. If the opponent objects/interrupts, then it's not a GRV that has occurred as much as it's an interruption of a shortcut. As for the shortcut being proposed, one could argue that (a) the player tapped (and floated mana) before activating Deathrite, or (b) that the player activated Deathrite, let it resolve, then started casting the spell and tapping appropriate lands. A player might try to argue that the opponent has done (a) in the hopes that the land mana is wasted, but the counterpoint to that is that if there was mana floating it should have been mentioned, and acknowledged by the opponent. So I'm very unlikely to rule that there's a bunch of mana floating.

So in general, I'll ask when the shortcut is being interrupted (probably on the deathrite activation) and back up to that point, which means untapping the lands.


As for Regular, I'll take time to explain how Deathrite is weird and that it's not a normal mana ability like Elvish Mystics. It can be responded to. So the player needs to activate deathrite, wait for it to resolve, then start casting their spell.

Okay since DRS ability is not a mana ability I would rule a GRV with a backup to before Shamans ability was used. Since Ashnod is able to pay with the lands he has in play i see no reason to rewind any further. So DRS is untapped and the Land back in the Graveyard amd A may procede with paying the casting cost.

On regular I would handle it like OoOS and tell the players how DRS normally works.

I suspect the reason this comes up, is that the player announced the spell, then began to pay for it? (As Gareth and Mark noted, the sequence of actions matters.)

So: “the Shaman's ability isn't a mana ability, so you can't use it during casting of a spell, you have to use it before you announce the spell, so let's undo the Shaman's activation and put that land back in your graveyard. Now, you have a spell on the stack that you can't pay for (assuming she needed something other than B?), so let's back that up, too.”

If the spell could be cast as announced with 4 Swamps, then she can pay for it, and there's really no reason to back up that spell. But that situation isn't very interesting, nor does it explain the desire to use the Shaman, so I'm assuming the spell is some other color.

d:^D

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

f the spell could be cast as announced with 4 Swamps, then she can pay for it, and there's really no reason to back up that spell.

I disagree with that sentence, and probably I got something wrong so let's walk through the scenario.

Let's assume it's something like Damnation, and the player wanted to get rid of the land for some reason apart from color (fear of a next turn Tarmogoyf assuming no more lands in GYs??).

The player could argue that he intended to use his Shaman and three black mana from his Swamps, leaving one Swamp untapped. Even if he announced the spell and started to (wrong) use Shaman, he's usually not forced to activate mana abilities to pay any costs, and the casting of the spell is backed up in its entirety.

So, why don't backup the spell?? Then the player can activate Shaman, waiting for some response from the opponent, and if everything OK, cast his Damnation peacefully :)

Joaquin, your point about not being forced to activate mana abilities is valid, and if Adamaro doesn't pay for the spell with the lands available to them, then we would have to back that up, too - and, as you said, allow them to activate the Shaman.

d:^D

Thanks you all for your opinions. To summarize, we do not force players to perform any game actions (including mana abilities activations) so, if she wants to, Ashnod is unable to comply with the steps of casting the spell and we go back.