Please keep the forum protocol in mind when posting.

Rules Q&A » Post: Petals of Insight and Omniscience. Is this loopable?

Petals of Insight and Omniscience. Is this loopable?

Aug. 31, 2015 05:45:53 PM

John Rowe
Judge (Level 1 (Judge Academy))

USA - Pacific West

Petals of Insight and Omniscience. Is this loopable?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29806-Sorting-with-Petals-of-Insight-Shortcutting-and-Slow-Play



I would love to know my fellow judges opinions on this discussion. My thoughts are as follows:



This is not a valid loop. The simple reason being that as an opponent I should have the ability to interact at any time. In a traditional loop a player will perform a set of actions and then “establish a shortcut” where that exact set of actions is repeated over and over. However in a Petal Loop the player is unable to state what actions they are taking in each shortcut of actions. Different numbers of cards are moved to the bottom/top each time and thus the gamestate cannot be tracked as it progresses. In a traditional loop a player can allow the loop to proceed any number of iterations and because every part of the loop is deterministic “after 19 loops, do X” because the exact gamestate is known. However in a Petals loop a player cannot say how many cards will have been put on top/bottom 19 interations in (without executing them) and thus a player cannot interact with this loop.



I think this would be pretty clearly outlined in 716.2a but there seems to be player (and judge) disagreement.



716.2a – “It can’t include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player take “

Aug. 31, 2015 05:50:41 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

Petals of Insight and Omniscience. Is this loopable?

Just a friendly reminder that these wonderful forums have an equally wonderful feature - Search. As it happens, doing a search for “Petals of Insight” reveals that this very question was answered just a few weeks ago:
http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/20489/

d:^D
  • Index
  • » Rules Q&A
  • » Petals of Insight and Omniscience. Is this loopable?