I've had a number of situations come up where I'm watching a match, the AP misses a beneficial trigger, NAP doesn't point it out, and a spectator does one of a number of possible things. They might simply look back and forth between the board state and me as if I missed it too, they might actually say “um, judge?”, they might inaudibly say something to another spectator and point at the board state, or they might even say something like “you missed your trigger”. (I've seen all of these happen except for the last one, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch.)

All of those feel like real feel bads if I give the OA to the spectator here, but in almost all of these situations that I saw, the AP realized they missed their trigger due to the spectator's actions and are now reminded of it for next time. I have never actually given OA for this kind of situation, but I'm not sure where that line is.

Also, how have you all handled these situations with regards to educating the spectator while giving as little information as possible to the players in progress in their match?

Edited Mark Johnson (Dec. 3, 2015 05:19:44 AM)

If I notice that something like this is about to happen, I try to pull the spectator away before they have a chance to say anything. If I can't do that in time, then I just explain to them how they shouldn't be doing that. Since they weren't actively trying to give advice, they were just trying to keep the game state legal and misunderstood the rules about missed triggers, I'm not too harsh. I've never had someone do it twice, but if it did, I would then go ahead and issue the penalty.

First off, as a preventative measure, I want to start making it a point to make announcements throughout the day that if you notice something odd in a match, ask the players to pause and call a judge instead of interjecting or saying anything at all. Player education about how to behave themselves as spectators isn't too good, and it is important for us to be able to educate them on this whenever we can, especially if we can proactively address these potential problems early in the event.

During the event however, if you haven't said that or if they just didn't think about it, I'm more inclined to be somewhat understanding to the situation of where their discussion amongst themselves tips off a player as to a missed trigger. It's so tough to know for sure if it was the mumbling chatter or if it was simply the player remembering after it was too late, and unless there's something really clear, like the player looking up at the spectator, following their gaze, and visibly reacting to the card that had the trigger they missed, I don't see myself going for the penalty here.

The line I personally draw is when someone outright interjects into the match - “Goblin rabblemaster!” or “Thalia!” when there's something on board that's not being noticed. That for me is the outright line where they absolutely will be given OA without question. I think most will agree this is the biggest issue, where something externally notable or visible to the players leads to information being gained. Pointing at the card, Calling out the name of the card, saying aloud the word “Trigger” are all issues that clearly cross that line, for me at least.

Players are allowed to miss beneficial triggers. That being said, in examples 1-3 where the spectator doesn't tell the AP that he missed a penalty, I would talk to the spectator and inform them that there is nothing you can do about a player missing a beneficial trigger because (from IPG) “Tournaments test the skill of a player…” and also explain to him that if they have a concern about the match they are able to stop it in progress and call over a judge.

In scenario 4 however, where the spectator says “you missed your trigger.” I would qualify that as giving play advice because it does have the potential to allow the AP to remember his triggers from now on. As much as it does suck to have to give out a Match Loss penalty, what he did does qualify as outside assistance and we do need to enforce all penalties.

@Mark: Most of those scenarios I would not count as OA. A spectator shouldn't be held responsible for OA due to where he looks while a match is going on nearby; it's just as likely the player was just looking at you as that he missed his trigger. I don't think we can classify that as OA, even if you believe it caused the player to remember their trigger. However, if the player audibly mentions that a trigger was missed within earshot of the players, I would rule OA there. Giving out an ML sucks, but at least that player won't do it again.

The line, I think, gets drawn at the second example, where the trigger is missed and the player says “um, judge?” Since players (except at Professional REL) are allowed to interrupt matches to call a judge to fix a problem, I would say this falls under that rule and not OA. Anything more serious than this and I would rule OA. MLs suck, but interfering with ongoing tournament matches sucks too.

@Marcos: Just FYI, Thalia is not a trigger, and therefore pointing out Thalia to the players of a match is not OA. OA is defined as (paraphrasing) telling the players the “correct” (strategically optimal) way to play the game. This is different from telling the players the legal way to play the game. Casting a noncreature spell without paying the Thalia tax is not legal, and therefore reminding them of such falls under the second category, rather than the first.

Edited Lyle Waldman (Dec. 3, 2015 11:41:30 AM)

Originally posted by Marcos Sanchez:

First off, as a preventative measure, I want to start making it a point to make announcements throughout the day that if you notice something odd in a match, ask the players to pause and call a judge instead of interjecting or saying anything at all. Player education about how to behave themselves as spectators isn't too good, and it is important for us to be able to educate them on this whenever we can, especially if we can proactively address these potential problems early in the event.

So much this. Most of the time players are simply trying to point out something they thing is wrong, and are unaware they are creating an issue with how they are trying to help.

Teaching players good tournament fundamentals is a big role of judges, so lets do it!

Originally posted by Marcos Sanchez:

First off, as a preventative measure, I want to start making it a point to make announcements throughout the day that if you notice something odd in a match, ask the players to pause and call a judge instead of interjecting or saying anything at all.

As a judge, I agree with this sentiment. However, as a player, I know that the more announcements we make, the more I zone out. At my last GP, there were already announcement regarding sealed procedure; improperly determining a winner; pairings; start times for rounds in the main event; and start times for rounds in side events. I'd be really hesitant to add to the drone.

How often does this come up in your events? Obviously it occurs a non-zero number of times; I get pulled aside by spectators from time to time at events. But I've never had to issue an OA penalty for a player "trying to help, nor seen one. Do you think it happens commonly enough to be worth the air time?

@Lyle: I know, Thalia just happened to come to mind as it was something I heard a player interject into a match with at a recent event I was working at. And yes, it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison of the situation presented here, but it's also one of the things that I feel is indicative of the type of behavior we're discussing which is the idea that a spectator can interject into a game that's in progress. And while I agree, it's simply reminding the player of something they were not legally able to do, that's not the spectator's job. That's what we're here for, and in those scenarios I'd still encourage the player to follow the correct methods in asking the players to pause the match and call us over so we can assess the situation properly and issue the GRV, or whatever Infraction & associated Penalty there would be in any given scenario.


@Eli: I'm confident we all agree with the sentiment, and maybe my original phrasing was a bit hyperbolic or far reaching in assuming that everyone needs to be doing this, because really it's not something that has to be there always. Go judge a PPTQ in Madison, you likely won't have to remind players of how to properly handle things at Comp REL. However I think that, on the whole, this should be something we all at least start considering in the mindset of customer service. This doesn't happen a significant amount in events that I'm at locally, but at SCG Opens or other larger Comp REL events, its inevitable that at that last table that you're sitting at when you're waiting to turn over the round that just went to turns, where a crowd has collected, someone will feel the need to say something even though we're watching. Not often - maybe once in a whole weekend, but enough that I feel like I'd want to address it.

To give an example of what I was thinking, perhaps an announcement at the start of round 3 or later before starting the clock along the lines of “To those wonderful people here who are not currently seating yourself for a match, and even those players who finish their matches early in the round, please remember that you are not able to assist or point out certain details about the great matches you may be watching throughout the day. If you see something odd or that would make you want to interject, PLEASE ask the players to pause the match and raise your hand and holler for a judge, and discuss it with us first!” It doesn't even have to be at a large event - this could easily be thrown in during a smaller PPTQ that has other casual players in the store who could wander over to check out some awesome games of Magic.

To the point of your question, I do in fact believe it can be worth the air time, given the right circumstances which we should be able to recognize. I certainly agree with you, timing and when you say this is important and something to be taken into consideration. However, I wouldn't discourage a judge from making a point to mention it if they feel its necessary to help manage expectations of the players and spectators in the area. How often are spectators even addressed at all, even though they're specifically mentioned multiple times in official policy and documents? Ultimately, if you feel the potential for a problem is there and can find an elegant way to address it before it becomes one, you're doing a better service to everyone involved in the event.

Edited Marcos Sanchez (Dec. 3, 2015 01:53:31 PM)