MTR 3.15 says Before each game begins, players must present their sideboard (if any) face down. Opponents may count the number of cards in their opponent’s sideboard at any time. I basically never see anyone do this, which is fine.

At a recent event I was playing in game 2 after my opponent presented, I asked my opponent how many cards were in their sideboard. The player said 15. A judge watching the match who had just counted it told me that the player actually had 14 cards in their sideboard.

Did the player commit a CPV? To me, it feels like the broke the spirit of the communication policy, but not the letter. The number of cards in the sideboard was incorrectly represented, which feels like derived information to me, but the sideboard isn't a zone according the CR 400.1

Edited Bobby Fortanely (Jan. 7, 2016 01:46:09 AM)

As additional clarification, I believe this player actually thought they had 15 cards in their sideboard, not that they were trying to misrepresent anything. They were very tired at this point.

Edited Bobby Fortanely (Jan. 7, 2016 01:45:19 AM)

The MTR gives you the right to count the Sideboard, it doesn't force your opponent to tell you how many cards are there. While it is simpler for your opponent to tell the truth, I mean you can just count so why lie, but they aren't breaking any rules by not telling or telling you the wrong number.

I also think that the judge in this situation was wrong to tell you the correct number

Hey, never thought about that, but I don't think the number of cards of your sideboard is derived information:

Derived information is information to which all players are entitled access, but opponents are not obliged to assist in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine. Derived information includes:
• The number of any type of objects present in any game zone.
• All characteristics of objects in public zones that are not defined as free information.
• Game Rules, Tournament Policy, Oracle content and any other official information pertaining to the current tournament. Cards are considered to have their Oracle text printed on them.

Sideboard is not a game zone.

400.10. An object is outside the game if it isn’t in any of the game’s zones. Outside the game is not a zone.
400.10a Cards in a player’s sideboard are outside the game. See rule 100.4.

So, as long as no Cheating is involved, I'd rule no infraction, no penalty, since it's private information (odd, since you can count them, but…).

This reminds me of a discovery Luke Hagerling and I made prior to the last rules update that the amount of mana in your mana pool was technically private information that the Comp Rules required you to announce when you cast a spell or activated an ability but that you could freely lie about at all other times. Luckily that's no longer the case.

On topic, I believe Joaquin is correct in his interpretation, although having the number of cards in your sideboard be something you can just openly lie about, but your opponent is allowed to verify at any time is kind of ludicrous. Perhaps this is another thing that can be fixed in the next rules update?

Sent from my iPad

I think about sideboard and remember the cool wishes, cards to take cards from sideboard!!
If a player ask about how many cards are… and it´s private information… i can lie and i will lie to disrupt… but…
If was private information… why my oponent can check it??

Free information is information to which all players are entitled access without contamination or omissions made by their opponents. If a player is ever unable or unwilling to provide free information to an opponent that has requested it, he or she should call a judge and explain the situation.

If the amount of cards in hand is public, why the cards in sideboard not?? Ok, isn´t in a zone… but as i can count how many cards in my oponent´s deck are (without take a look of the cards chetyface)… Can i do the same with the sideboard???
(In other words: Is the numbers of cards in each sideboard free information?)

The number of cards in the sb seems to be treated like derived information from a philosophy standpoint, but it's not defined as such in the communication policy. I consider this to be a bug. It matches the definition of derived information but isn't explicitly enumerated as such.

Derived information is information to which all players are entitled access, but opponents are not obliged to assist
in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine.

But that case need something that here (at least) we never do: “put our sideboard facedown on the table!” instead having it in the box… and we know that big events not allways have enought space to play with land zone, permanent zone, deck and graveyard and exile… in order without try a block with “next player” tarmo XD

Let's have a look at free/derived/private information categories of the MTR 4.1

Free information includes (and nothing else!)
• Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state.
• The name of any visible object.
• The type of any counter in a public zone.
• The physical status (tapped/flipped/unattached/phased) and current zone of any object.
• Player life totals, poison counter totals, and the game score of the current match.
• The current step and/or phase and which player(s) are active.

Derived information includes: (and nothing else!)
• The number of any type of objects present in any game zone.
As explained earlier in this thread, the sideboard is not a game zone
• All characteristics of objects in public zones that are not defined as free information.
• Game Rules, Tournament Policy, Oracle content and any other official information pertaining to the current tournament. Cards are considered to have their Oracle text printed on them.

Private information
• Any information that is not free or derived is automatically private information.


When determining what kind of information is seeked/talked about, and it doesn't fall exactly into the examples of MTR 4 of free/derived, then it is private information. Do not try to bring too much philosophy or ethics into the Communication Policy, that'll make rulings about it inconsistent. If it does not match free/derived information, then it is private information, even if you think it shouldn't.

Since the information is not free, not derived, it is private. There are no restrictions governing the rules about communication on private information, that means players can lie.

I agree with Gareth Tanner here.

Edited Philip Böhm (Jan. 9, 2016 01:50:04 AM)

Im agree with that definition about zones… and P/D/Pr info… but… sideboards…
There are not in public zone…
There are not in game zone…
Where are the sideboards???

In a GP how, as a player, can i check if after use sideboard… my opponent have or not a 16 cards sideboard because use 61cards deck if i dont count it on the first game and he/she liar (because he/she can) about how many cards are on the sideboard now…

61+15 ===> 60+16

Another chety think… if i go to a GP with 40 cards on sideboard??? how my oponent can tell me than im cheating??
maibe ive 3 sideboards-decks and use SB-1, SB-2 or SB-3 to found the best to get advantage for A, B or C decks archeotypes…

I think about it, and really i want SB need to be over the table, facedown, but able to seek and count how many cards have before and after every game… but as i tell before… usually we dont have enought table for all…

Players are already required to present their sideboards as part of the pregame procedure, so if you want to ask to count it, you're allowed to do so.

Soo… we can tell this:
-SB was private information
-Numbers of cards in SB was free information

yes or not??

Philip's analysis is fine - Free and Derived are defined in a clear and specific manner; anything not defined as Free or Derived is, by definition, Private. Yes, an opponent can count the sideboard at any time, because of the MTR, but you can still lie (err, *bluff*) about Private information. But all of that is fairly trivial, in my view.

Originally posted by Gareth Tanner:

I also think that the judge in this situation was wrong to tell you the correct number

This is the interesting part of this thread, in my opinion. I'm sure the judge had good intentions, but it sure seems like a Very Bad Thing, for a judge to reveal private information - regardless of the intent. Fortunately, this knowledge is of no value in almost every *reasonable* scenario (please don't provide 21 exceptions!), it's likely that no real harm was done - but let's all remember to be careful about what we say, when watching a match.

d:^D

Ok, now i think i understood all ^_^

Apologies to the judge involved, as I misremembered the order of what happened.

The judge reaffirmed that I was allowed to count my opponent's sideboard when the player seemed very confused and hesitant at the prospect. After counting, I told my opponent that I counted 14 when my opponent said that it was 15. The judge reaffirmed that they had also counted 14.

My bad.