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Competitive REL » Post: Nothing? LEC? MPE?

Nothing? LEC? MPE?

April 27, 2016 08:24:56 AM

Dani Garcia
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

Iberia

Nothing? LEC? MPE?

This situation happened to me in a tournament and after discussing with several judges i have decided to post it here.
Real Situation: A player draws 6 cards and instead of seeing the 7th he sees the 8th and not sees the 7th
Bonus points: A player draws 6 cards and instead of seeing the 7, he sees 7 and 8. MPE? LEC pre-game?

April 27, 2016 08:31:36 AM

Mark Mc Govern
Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Nothing? LEC? MPE?

I'm not sure how either situation can happen - some fancy dexterity work I suppose. In both cases, card #8 was seen when it shouldn't while it sounds like they're drawing an opening hand. MPE covers doesn't seem to cover looking at cards, so I don't see why we wouldn't rule L@EC just like before.

April 27, 2016 08:44:05 AM

Yurick Costa
Judge (Uncertified)

Brazil

Nothing? LEC? MPE?

I'm supposing that when you say ‘seeing’, the player is actually drawing the card, not making a dexterity mistake, like the card jumping from the deck face up on the table, or such. If this is the case, just apply L@EC and shuffle it back in the library.

Real Situation:
I believe 7th and 8th cards are still random, so nothing has really happened - just move the 7th to the top of the library, 8th to the hand and carry on.

Bonus Points:
MPE, definitely. The opponent will choose one card from A's revealed hand to shuffle back into the library, or A can choose to mulligan. Warning and remember player to always be careful when counting the cards before drawing them.

April 27, 2016 08:58:01 AM

Gregory Farias
Judge (Uncertified), Scorekeeper

Brazil

Nothing? LEC? MPE?

Originally posted by Daniel Garcia:

Real Situation: A player draws 6 cards and instead of seeing the 7th he sees the 8th and not sees the 7th
Bonus points: A player draws 6 cards and instead of seeing the 7, he sees 7 and 8. MPE? LEC pre-game?
Sounds like MPE to me.

To correct the situation, the player has to take an additional mulligan, as IPG says:
IPG 2.4
If cards are not removed from the hand this way (either due to an error that didn’t lead to too
many cards, or by the player choosing not to reveal), that player takes an additional mulligan

Edited Gregory Farias (April 27, 2016 10:07:26 AM)

April 27, 2016 09:11:47 AM

Pascal Gemis
Judge (Level 1 (Judge Academy))

BeNeLux

Nothing? LEC? MPE?

IPG 2.4 is here to cover case like :
-A player taking a mulligan after scrying.
-A player chose to not mulligan and after opponent say he/she will, take one.

Edited Pascal Gemis (April 27, 2016 09:29:08 AM)

April 27, 2016 10:07:25 AM

Johannes Wagner
Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))

German-speaking countries

Nothing? LEC? MPE?

http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/26342/?page=1#post-170375

To give the answer from another thread where this situation was tackled already :)
It's LEC, so shuffle the library and move on. The player already kept his hand.

April 27, 2016 11:04:15 AM

Dan Collins
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 5 (Judge Foundry)), Scorekeeper

USA - Northeast

Nothing? LEC? MPE?

As long as the 7th and 8th cards never joined the rest of the hand, and
everyone agrees which is the 7th and which is the 8th, we should have him
draw the 7th, shuffle the 8th, LEC, and he continues mulliganing. The
thread Johannes linked confirms that we can apply LEC to pregame
procedures. However, the player is not considered to have kept his opening
hand here - the other thread is a different scenario where the player
declared a keep and then scried incorrectly, AP has not declared a keep or
mulligan here, so there's no reason to hold AP to a keep.

We may be tempted to have him draw the 8th card that he saw instead of the
7th card that he did not, but remember that the only reason we think he
didn't see the 7th, is because he says so. These cards are no longer
random, so the only appropriate fixes are to have him draw the correct
card, or shuffle both of them in.

April 27, 2016 11:24:04 AM

Johannes Wagner
Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))

German-speaking countries

Nothing? LEC? MPE?

Yeah, after reading it some more time I should ask OP for a clarification: Did he mulligan and was already scrying where he saw too many cards or he was currently drawing his opening hand where he saw the wrong card/too many cards and they didn't touch the other cards??

Edited Johannes Wagner (April 27, 2016 11:26:51 AM)

April 27, 2016 01:51:53 PM

Dani Garcia
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

Iberia

Nothing? LEC? MPE?

In the Real Situation: The player draws cards one by one and in the last (7th) takes two and he sees the second (because the 7th falls to the table face down)
In Bonus: is the same, but he sees the 7th and 8th.

April 27, 2016 02:29:57 PM

Olivier Jansen
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Northeast

Nothing? LEC? MPE?

How is this different from the following situation:

A player mulligans. He puts 7 cards face-down by mistake, realizes his error, and picks up cards 2-7 instead of 1-6.

April 27, 2016 03:22:24 PM

Johannes Wagner
Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))

German-speaking countries

Nothing? LEC? MPE?

Still would fix it with the LEC Fix. Shuffle the Library, let him draw the 7th card and we go on. In both situations.

April 27, 2016 04:22:47 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

Nothing? LEC? MPE?

Originally posted by Olivier Jansen:

He puts 7 cards face-down by mistake, realizes his error, and picks up cards 2-7 instead of 1-6.
Counting out cards face down is not an infraction, and - unless he's Cheating via Marked Cards - it doesn't matter which six cards end up in his hand.

The original scenario is unusual - it's hard to start to draw #7 and get #8 instead, and it just won't happen often. If we can all agree that the face-down card never joined the others, we just shuffle it away, as L@EC - it's a dexterity error! - but if there were ever 8 cards together in the hand, it's an MPE.

d:^D

Edited Scott Marshall (April 27, 2016 04:23:10 PM)