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Competitive REL » Post: Problem during HCE investigation

Problem during HCE investigation

May 5, 2016 04:59:01 AM

Gregory Farias
Judge (Uncertified), Scorekeeper

Brazil

Problem during HCE investigation

This is an hypothetical scenario.

You are the HJ of a COMP REL tournament. A call takes you to a table where it is alleged that one of the players drew an additional card. Questioning the players, you found that AP drew an additional card during his Draw Step, he claims that he played an Electrolyze during the NAP's End Step and forgot to draw the card in the resolution of the spell, AP and NAP agree on everything, except that NAP says that AP had already draw the card in the resolution of the Electrolyze.

There is no alternative but to investigate the incident. This is the 4th AP's turn (3rd NAP), he didn't mulligan, he started the match playing and didn't play any other spell, only Electrolyze. Both players agree with these statements. So, counting all the cards in AP's hand, grave and battlefield, he must have 11 cards. If the total is more than 11 cards, he committed HCE, maybe UC-C.

However, when you count the cards three times, you get 10 cards, that is, he has one card less than he should have.

What would you do to correct the error?

PS.: Sorry for my english.

May 5, 2016 08:40:37 AM

Dan Collins
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 5 (Judge Foundry)), Scorekeeper

USA - Northeast

Problem during HCE investigation

Verify that he did not mulligan. (ask the players again)

If he was on the play, and it is his fourth turn, he should have 10 cards plus 1 for the electrolyze. Check lands in play to make sure we're confident that it is actually turn 4.

Count NAP's cards as well. NAP should also have 10, because he has had 3 draw steps as well.

Count AP's library and sideboard.

If there are no other inconsistencies, then AP has failed to draw a card not only for Electrolyze, but also previously. There's a GRV partial fix for that.

Edited Dan Collins (May 5, 2016 08:42:12 AM)

May 5, 2016 08:40:59 AM

Rob Marti
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Southwest

Problem during HCE investigation

Well, he didn't draw any extra cards.
Since you can't identify when he did miss a card draw (meaning it's likely too long ago to rewind), I wouldn't issue a penalty nor would I have him draw up to 11.


Edit - correction. The IPG specifically calls out not drawing a card as something you can do without a rewind.
So issue a GPE-GRV, have him draw a card, and play on.

Originally posted by IPG 2.5:

• If a player forgot to draw cards, discard cards, or return cards from their hand to another zone, that player does so.

Edited Rob Marti (May 5, 2016 08:46:10 AM)

May 5, 2016 06:17:09 PM

Riki Hayashi
Judge (Uncertified), Scorekeeper, Tournament Organizer

USA - Midatlantic

Problem during HCE investigation

I would be cautious when applying the fix for an unknown situation. For the Electrolyze, it seems that the players are certain that the card was not drawn for that. For the second card, investigate and ascertain how that could have happened, but if there's no definitive account of “I forgot to draw on T2” that you can be certain of, I would just leave the game state as is.

May 6, 2016 06:55:37 AM

Sal Cortez
Judge (Level 1 (Judge Academy))

USA - Pacific West

Problem during HCE investigation

I'm with Riki on this one, I would hate to have the player draw a card because they ‘forgot to earlier’, but there was actually one or two factors I hadn't accounted for and the player actually DID draw an extra card. Now they have 2 extra cards they shouldn't have. If there was more time to investigate I would dig further, or recount or do X (hypothetical situations are almost impossible to really think further into). I need more information to make an informed call.