* Please see the updates at the end of the question. *

Hi everyone. The game situation is as follows: I control an untapped Time Vault. In her turn, my opponent casts Emrakul, the Promised End, which makes her control me during my next turn and give me an extra turn after that turn. The “game question” is: For the next two turns, who decides whether to skip the turn and untap Time Vault instead? But basically, the question is:

When exactly do I make the Time Vault decision whether to skip my next turn in order to untap the artifact?

The relevant part in the current wording of Time Vault is: “If you would begin your turn while Time Vault is tapped, you may skip that turn instead. If you do, untap Time Vault.”

So we have a replacement effect with a choice in it (“If you would …, you may … instead. If you do, …”). Here is my approach:

Q1: What does the replacement effect replace?
A1: The beginning of my turn (I'm the controller of Time Vault).

Q2: Has my turn begun yet when the decision is to be made?
A2: No. Depending on the decision, the turn is skipped and wouldn't even begin.

Q3: So when is the decision to be made?
A3: Before my turn, obviously, as my turn is about to begin.

Q4: When is this?
A4: My turn begins in the very moment when the preceeding turn ends, because there is no in-between the turns (CR 500.11: “No game events can occur between turns, phases, or steps.”).

Q5: So exactly when is this?
A5: In the cleanup step, after the active player has discarded down to seven cards in his or her hand, after damage is removed from permanents, and after all “until end of turn” and “this turn” effects have ended (CR 514.3).

At least, that's my conclusion. Regarding the “game question”, that would mean:

At the very end of the current turn (my opponent's turn), I may decide to untap Time Vault and skip my next turn which is about to begin. It doesn't matter that I would be controlled by my opponent during that turn, because it hasn't started yet. (If my turn is skipped, my opponent cannot control me during that turn. But she will control me during my next not-skipped turn.)

Let's say I don't skip my turn, my opponent controls me during that turn, we come to the end of that turn, and again the untap-or-not decision is to be made. According to my conclusion, we're still in my (first, opponent-controlled) turn, but as “this turn” effects have ended, my opponent doesn't control me anymore. That would mean that it's again me who decides whether to skip my next (extra) turn, not my opponent. (>>> see update 2 <<<)

I contacted WotC customer support on this subject. In their first response, they were talking about a trigger, but there's no triggered ability in the Oracle text of Time Vault. So I contacted them again. In their second response, they said it was just like phasing, but phasing changes what happens during the untap step, and I wouldn't have an untap step when I skip my turn, would I? So I don't feel like their answers to be of any help.

But I still don't know if I am right or not. Especially, I wonder whether my interpretation of CR 500.11 is correct. (On the other hand, if A4 would be “After the current turn has ended, before my turn begins” I still would be the one to decide in both cases. Only the reason would be slightly different.)

I am aware that this is a very special case, because Time Vault is old, and while the errata have tried to match it to today's rules as close as possible, it probably still doesn't fit in there. That's why an ability like this wouldn't appear in a current Magic set. (There is only one other “If you would begin” card, Fasting, which allows you to skip the draw step.)

So: Sorry for this question, I don't know where else to turn turn to.
And: Sorry for being so lengthy. (I always try to share as much of my thinking as possible.)

Thank you for any help.

Kind regards,

Mario Hassler


* Update 1 *

Someone else at the WotC customer support took care of this question, and he was more thorough. He went to the Rules Manager who confirmed my assumption: The decision is to be made at the very end of the preceeding turn. Problem solved.


* Update 2 *

While the answer made clear at which moment exactly the decision has to be made, there was still a snarl that I put into the question. I thought that the "controlling another player during his or her next turn“ effect was just another way of writing a ”until end of turn“ or ”this turn" effect. Alejandro from Argentina, who read this, doubted that this was right. And to make it short: His doubts were legitimate. Controlling another player does not wear off at the time “until end of turn” or “this turn” effects end during the cleanup step. You control that player until the very end of that turn.

For the question this means:

At the very end of the current (opponent's) turn, I decide whether to skip the next turn and untap Time Vault instead. If I do, the game will go on with my opponent's turn, followed by my next turn, during which I'm controlled by my opponent, followed by my extra turn granted by Emrakul. (Nothing special here.) But: If I don't skip my turn, then the game will go on with my turn, during which I'm controlled by my opponent, and before the extra turn granted by Emrakul would start, it's my opponent (still controlling me) who decides whether I would skip that turn and untap Time Vault instead.

Apologies for the confusion – and many thanks to Alejandro for being so attentive!

Edited Mario Haßler (Jan. 27, 2017 08:46:27 AM)