1) Context: the libraries in question are randomized and intentional shenanigans have been ruled out. That said…

Anise's cards are in slippery sleeves and the top few cards are askew. On her draw step she says “draw,” reaches out and pulls the second card from the top into her hand (miraculously without revealing the card above it). Judge called. What's the infraction? Has Anise actually drawn a card but in the wrong way (GRV), or has she not drawn a card as defined by 120.1 but simply put one into her hand (DEC)?

2) Pregame procedures specifically allow for cards to be dealt out for one's opening hand. Are the cards considered “drawn” when they are dealt on the table, or when they are moved from the table to the player's hand?

3) Given that the option to deal out cards then pick them up only exists (AFAIK) for the pregame procedure, how would you police the same procedure being used for, say, a large Sphinx's Revelation?

Originally posted by Aaron Huntsman:

intentional shenanigans have been ruled out

Given that, and assuming that also implies that no ordering of the library to put a certain card 2nd, instead of on the top? It's not really a serious concern, just a GRV and “please be more careful”, no need to attempt a remedy. While a card draw is supposed to be the top card, what's critical is that a random card is drawn (if the top of the library is, in fact, random).

If the top cards have been ordered somehow, it's still possible to investigate and conclude “no shenanigans”, but less likely. That's such an odd corner case, I'm not sure what I'd actually do if I found myself in that situation…

2) the latter - when they're moved from the table to the player's hand. It's permissible to deal out more cards than you were supposed to draw, realize your error, and correct it before actually putting any in your hand. That's true whether we're drawing our opening hand, or a mid-game draw numbering greater than one.

One caveat with that, however - if I deal out 8 cards, I have to be sure to put the 8th card back on my library, not the 1st one.

Here's a somewhat more likely scenario; this one was posed to me at a PTQ last weekend and led to the thoughts on other things above. Player mulls to 6, deals out 7 cards in a pile, picks up the first card in that pile, then says, “Oops, I was only supposed to draw 6.” They've only drawn one card but it was the 7th one down in their deck. Is it then treated as ID@SoG? Would it be DEC if it happened in a midgame draw effect?

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

One caveat with that, however - if I deal out 8 cards, I have to be sure to put the 8th card back on my library, not the 1st one.

If the player is dealing cards from a randomized library face-down for the opening hand, how much do we truly care if it's the 1st or 8th card that is put back (assuming we rule out marked cards/manipulation)? Would we issue any kind of infraction if the player just unthinkingly puts back the 1st card, or perhaps only a direct instruction? If an infraction, what would the infraction/penalty/remedy be? Thanks in advance. :)

Originally posted by Aaron Huntsman:

Here's a somewhat more likely scenario; this one was posed to me at a PTQ last weekend and led to the thoughts on other things above. Player mulls to 6, deals out 7 cards in a pile, picks up the first card in that pile, then says, “Oops, I was only supposed to draw 6.” They've only drawn one card but it was the 7th one down in their deck. Is it then treated as ID@SoG? Would it be DEC if it happened in a midgame draw effect?

I had this exact thing happen to me at a PTQ. I ruled no penalty, shuffled a random card that hadn't been looked at back in. Neither player had a problem with my fix.

Edited Trenten Novak (April 9, 2014 04:10:31 PM)

What Josh said. I commonly see people count cards face down, then count
them again while picking them back up to confirm them. What if they
realize only when picking them up again they have too many and stop before
they actually see the last (random) card? I feel like they were trying to
protect against DEC with the kinds of operations management I like, so I
really hate penalizing this.


~Rob McKenzie
Magic Judge Level III
Minnesota

I have to agree that *accidentally* drawing cards 2-8, instead of 1-7, because of the scenarios described above, shouldn't be an infraction. Technically, they've done an odd “cut” of their library after the opponent has shuffled & returned it. That is no longer allowed - but it's one of those MTR things that's not a specific infraction.

(Note the emphasis on accidentally, though…)

d:^D